LJ Drama - Let She That Fights Against Monsters Beware, Lest She Herself A Monster Becomes

[clovehitched]

Ironically, some of the most horrible vitriol and hatred directed at trans women comes from the women's community. People like Janice Raymond, author of the shameful "The Transsexual Empire", Germiane Greer before she became less vocal in favour of her own career as a media person, and that one who writes in the Guardian sometimes, you know, the trans people should be forbidden from having surgery because it's inconvenient for my politics one, started out with the best of intentions. They saw the way society treated women like second class citizens, and they wanted to do something about it.

And they saw they had an enemy - the patriarchy, and they divided the world into "us and them", and then it started to go a bit wrong. They assumed that "us" were always the victims, and "them" were always the perpetrator, and anything done in the name of "us" was automatically right, because it was "fighting oppression", and if someone else got hurt, well then they're automatically one of "them", and they probably had it coming.

And so when trans women are systematically excluded from women's resources and spaces, whether that be something as symbolic as being denied access to a music festival where you commune with the Moon Goddess for a week by eating tofu, Having a pharmacy refuse to serve you, or something as serious as being denied rape counselling or being put in a male prison, transphobic radical feminist turn a blind eye, or even cheer on the abuse of other women in the name of "ending women's oppression". We're not even casualties of war to them, we are the oppressor.

Julia Serano, a trans women, has written a book which has become very influential in transfeminist circles, Whipping Girl, which is broadly a collection of essays highlighting some of the problems trans women face, often perpetuated by the women's movement, or the queer community. She popularised and gave us lots of useful terminology - cissexual, someone who is not transsexual; cissexism, the belief that the identified genders of trans people are somehow fake or less authentic than the genders of cissexual people; trans misogyny - hatred or transphobia directed specifically at trans women.

It's the last one I want to talk about. One of the issues Julia Serano highlights is the way many queer spaces and people value or fetishise gender transgression by female-assigned-at-birth people while simultaneously directing hatred or disgust towards gender transgression by male-assigned-at-birth people. The fetishisation of trans masculinity within the lesbian community, while that same community frequently campaigns to shut trans women lesbians out, is but one example. If one hangs around queer spaces enough, this fetishisation of trans men can often seem ubiquitous, and there are those who encourage it, whether trans men themselves, or masculine-leaning lesbians wanting to demonstrate how subversive and edgy they are by adopting a transgender identity, as if it were a new haircut.

This is appropriative and really messed up, and it creates a lot of anger amongst trans women, who often struggle to have our voices heard in this atmosphere, or who are dismissed as "men in dresses". While it is subversive and radical for female-assigned-at-birth people to adopt the trappings of masculinity, it is seen as shameful and appropriative and oppressive for male-assined-at-birth people to go in the other direction.

Of course, these people don't really respect trans men, or take their gender identities seriously. Having a trans man as a boyfriend while proudly proclaiming your lesbian identity is a la mode presently, even if you do then refer to them as "she" and "her" behind his back, and will dump him the moment he starts to get body hair, or talks about getting any kind o gender affirming surgery. There are limits! One can't be too edgy and subversive, otherwise it looks like heterosexuality, and gosh darn it, that's not edgy or subversive at all!

Serano has done a great job in giving form to this issue, so that we can talk about it in terms of the way it ungenders both trans men and trans women, perpetuates trans misogyny and the exclusion of trans women from queer and women's spaces, and so on.

But I can't help thinking that, like the Raymonds, the Greers and the Bindels, some of us have lost the plot.

A few weeks ago,in transgender, a community which I moderate, during a debate over who was allowed to reclaim the word, "tranny" witout being oppressive, a really nasty undercurrent seemed to surface. That there was a debate at all was cast as trans misogyny. Trans men who tried to argue their case, or trans women who supported them were frequently shouted down and told to stop being oppressive. The thread grew to 800 comments, and showed no sign of slowing. Meanwhile parts of it degenerated into outright personal attacks between small groups of people. Before we, the moderators, shut it down, some of the arguments had descended into racial abuse. It got extremely ugly.

One poster in particular started referring to trans men as "runts with c*nts*, and talked about how sick they were of listening to "dickless men", which ultimately earned them a ban. At the time I figured it was such a clearcut case of inexcusable transphobia that even those who had been sympathetic to the "Even discussing whether trans men are allowed to say 'tranny' is trans misogynistic" angle would not make excuses for it. It seems I was wrong.

I was recently dismayed to see some women defending the abuse of trans men with phrases such as "runts with c*unts" and "dickless men" on the grounds that it is, and I quote, "funny and witty", and that it's, "an emotionally evocative phrase meant to illustrate the damage of living in a body that is a constant, inescapable cultural punch line".

It gets worse; the reasoning seems to go that picking a trans women up for saying this is evidence of trans misogyny - apparently it would be just fine for someone to talk about "chicks with dicks" in transgender, and it would receive no comment from the moderation team, on account of how invested in trans misogyny and sticking up for "them" (trans men, in their newly cast role as part of "them") we all are.

To anyone who genuinely thinks that, and from the LJ drama surrounding this, I can see there are those who do, I can only suggest you try putting it to the test - the community would likely be better off without you. I'd also like to say this - I think you've taken trans misogyny and turned it into a dogma, and in doing so you're attacking your own community. When trans men I know come to me, as a community moderator, in tears because they feel at the mercy of their GP, or gender clinc, and no-longer even feel they can turn to their community because it's cast them as the oppressor, then it seems clear that some in our community are doing to them what the transphobic radfems did to us. People doing this, becoming the trans community's own Julie Bindels are part of the problem. When you start talking about whether it's OK to use transphobia against trans men as a satirical way of highlighting transphobia against trans women then I think you've lost the plot.

A friend of mine (white, straight, cismale), once referred to much of the identity politics on LJ as "bullshyt". At the time I thought, "what a terribly privileged thing to say". Now I see my own "side" using a position that should be used to highlight and combat oppression to victimise other people with impunity, because they are so used to being the victims, and I see he had a point. Yes, trans women are oppressed. Yes, some queer spaces privilege trans men over us, but this is wrong, and I want no part of it.

I'm screening comments here, for obvious reasons.

Originally posted at http://auntysarah.dreamwidth.org/205192.html - you can comment here or there.

Comments

[cyberspice.livejournal.com]

It is a sad but common development that those who have been bullied become the bullies when the oportunity arises. Its hard to break the cycle...

[phonemonkey.livejournal.com]

The higher they are, the harder they fall - but the lower they are, the harder they kick.

[jessie-c.livejournal.com]

What I found most egregious about that whole 'tranny' mess was the way people were ganged up on and shouted down. Groupthink caught on in a big way even before the personal and racist remarks started flying. Once that started I just left the whole mess to collapse; there was nothing I or anyone else could do by that point but let it fall apart.

Transpeople are many times too diverse to share a sense of community. Apart from the Big Thing, there's little we all hold in common. We are young, old, gay, straight, bi, asexual, liberal, conservative, monogamous, polyamarous, atheist, religious, sex workers, Government workers, cops, lawyers, Doctors, factory workers. You name it, there's a transperson who does it. That brings us a great strength but at the same times it's a great weakness. We can't always get into our peers' heads and empathise with them. Too many of us have a sense of entitlement that informs us that our way is the only true way to be trans and unless we constantly stay aware of that privileged thinking, we tend to judge others by our own circumstances. That way lies division and the seeds of the "Hot Tranny Mess".

Identity politics is far too often a minefield. One must navigate it with care lest one find it blowing up in one's face.

[tartful-dodger.livejournal.com]

I can't help but say this but...

Hot Tranny Mess definitely sounds like a porn film.

[whisperkit.livejournal.com]

Amen. That was a disgusting argument and permanently soured my view of the transgender LJ group. I stuck up for the FtMs, and the trans women arguing that they should gtfo automatically decided I must be one, too. You either agree with them or you're not a "real" transwoman.. It's a nasty philosophy to say the least.

[auntysarah.livejournal.com]

It will not be allowed to happen again, I promise.

[bloodbeauty.livejournal.com]

[hug] thank you. i don't think i could ever be as articulate and objective about the whole mess as you can be

[auntysarah.livejournal.com]

*hugs*

[becky44.livejournal.com]

From what you've described, there's a lot of 'children' who subscribe utterly to the idea of 'dogma'....... and that's just fundamentalism - and we all know where that leads.

I've always hoped that the whole issue of 'identity' could be subsumed into a simple acceptance of just being human - while accepting that everyone has their own sub-identity within that - without making the individual identity categories such a stumbling block to aceptance.

We all have our own identities - we should be proud of them - but don't use them as a means to belittle and stratify others in realtion to yourself.

I hope that makes sense - and maybe I'm being too idealistic - but I've always tried to live by the principle of IDIC - and it still surprises me that other people can't grow up and realise that the simplicity of IDIC would change the world beyond recognition. It'll not happen until there's been another world war and we're knocked back almost to a pre-technological civilisation.

All hail St. Gene (Rodenberry, that is! The unsung genius the world never recognised!)

[auntysarah.livejournal.com]

What's IDIC?

[jamiethegrey.livejournal.com]

Thank you for posting this. Just... thank you.

[auntysarah.livejournal.com]

You're welcome! *hugs*

[auntysarah.livejournal.com]

And "emotionally evocative" seems to be shorthand for, "hurts people".

[steepholm.livejournal.com]

Well said. I don't envy you being a moderator there, but I'm glad you are!

Being uncouth often sort of trancends whatever axe they have to grind.

[capybyra.livejournal.com]

It's situational as to how far uncouth some folks ever get to go. Then again? Oftentimes there's this haunting essential energy to be sheer evil that's in every heartbeat of folks like the ones you are invoking. Sigh, Karma's got to find an energy sink somewhere. It just deeply and truly sucks when that sort of sheer bad everything lays their doom upon folks who life has not been easy for- even absent the crapflingers. I could live several lifetimes and NEVER feel a desire to express phobias as grounds for origination of evils. One of my morbid phobias is a fear of being trapped in a small space with such as Bindel etc...

As were it me and they locked into a lift etc- I'd be tempted to put them out of my misery using teeth&nails...

[spittingkittens.livejournal.com]

Your 'white straight cis male'* friend is absolutely right: identity politics, of any shape or form, are utter bullshit, and discussions surrounding such things always end up in tears. I mean, how do you politicise identity when everybodys identity is completely different, incredibly complex, and ultimately dynamic?

As for the thread you're talking about. Meh. After thinking about it I did actually think Imi had a very good point, and it made me seriously question the value of using 'tranny' as a edgy or cool or humourous method of self-deprecation. I also think that maybe such things are worth discussing (because some people aren't offended by it, or they do 'reclaim' it, or whatever, and some people *are* hurt by it, and melting up perspectives can be useful. hell, it was a learning experience for me). However, totally..... just because one trans-man behaves like a dick, or just because one aspect of culture somewhere or other is squicky, doesn't mean that the whole thing is off. IYSWIM. But, the origional post wasn't suggesting that (even though i wasn't surprised it trainwrecked), just (from my reading) a handful of people with nothing better to do (at that particular time) than stir shit up on the internet.


Otherwise, it just proves that you can be an asshole no matter what your demographic.



*i have to ask myself whether this disclaimer is totally neccessary as well..... does it matter that the person in question is white, straight, cis and a he? i can see why do mention it, to provide context, but it really is a very narrow way of packaging up a person and it certainly doesn't preclude the possibility that he has some insight into the situation.

[auntysarah.livejournal.com]

After thinking about it I did actually think Imi had a very good point, and it made me seriously question the value of using 'tranny' as a edgy or cool or humourous method of self-deprecation. I also think that maybe such things are worth discussing (because some people aren't offended by it, or they do 'reclaim' it, or whatever, and some people *are* hurt by it, and melting up perspectives can be useful. hell, it was a learning experience for me). However, totally..... just because one trans-man behaves like a dick, or just because one aspect of culture somewhere or other is squicky, doesn't mean that the whole thing is off.

I think one of the biggest objections I had to that thread was the way some of the "tryns wymyn" seem to have equated discussing something controversial within the trans community to their use of outright hateful transphobia against trans men, and deciding the two are equivalent, and therefore the moderators are trans misogynist for picking up the use of actual transphobic hate speech against members of the community while not instantly banning anyone who, you know, dares to take part in the actual discussion on the "wrong" side.

There's no equivalence at all, and frankly I think most of the people claiming that there is are just looking for an excuse to avoid thinking about the way they've behaved like utter shits.

does it matter that the person in question is white, straight, cis and a he? i can see why do mention it, to provide context, but it really is a very narrow way of packaging up a person and it certainly doesn't preclude the possibility that he has some insight into the situation.

I think that's a bloody good point, and the whole, "you must be respectful to me while I abuse you because I am a member of more minorities than you are" dynamic that seemed to be going on there seemed to a) completely ignore than, and b) use it as a very cynical cover to behave abusively and not get called out for it.

[cmcmck.livejournal.com]

HUGS

This is just nasty, but if it's any consolation, t'aint new, but the same old emperor of prejudice and hatred in new clothes and it's still just as naked!

As you know, I've been around for a long time and long ago came to the conclusion that the right size for a group of trans peeps is one (although this isn't to say that I haven't met many wonderful trans peeps, yourself included, over the years or that I've found it impossible to campaign from a quiet corner :o) As Jessie says, we really don't hold very much in common (although one does occasionally meet peeps with similar interests or background more or less by chance as a result of travelling this road less taken) apart from having had to deal with the GD monster.........

The very fact that you've chosen to screen comments for, I think, the first time since I've known you, speaks volumes. Very sad. :o(

[maellenkleth]

Hmm, screened comments are handy, if only because it affords an opportunity to get a little closer to what needs saying, on second thought.

I've survived transphobia for most of my life, now; I'm sure I'm not the only one who undertook to drop out of view from the broader world (and, indeed, drop out of view from the few transfolk I knew back then when I was new and young).

I am saddened to see that the same sort of dreadful infighting is going on, now, as went on thirty years ago. Days are, I despair of people ever growing up and learning to leave each other be.

I utterly concur with Chiara's analysis "that the right size for a group of trans peeps is one" -- there's simply been too much to lose, for most of us, to want to risk getting together in person or even (in most cases) exchange contact details.

I hold a cautious hope for some of the people presently embroiled in the bitter fight at hand, that they at least will come to see for themselves that more is to be gained by talking together with mutual respect, than by descending into a bottomless spiral of name-calling.

I do sincerly wish that that hope will come to fruition.

[shemale.livejournal.com]

I figure it won't be unscreened, but just so you yourself know, there is context being left out here: When voz said "runts with cunts," she was saying that trans men tend not to get called things like "a chick with a dick," and she wasn't talking about within the trans community, or within the queer community, she was talking about it coming at an institutional level, and from people who aren't queer, and/or from people who aren't trans, especially from straight cis men.

More context--the women (and, conveniently omitted from mention, one man) who, in my journal, were talking about voz using that phrase to illustrate that "suddenly, when it happens to trans men, it's relevant. But I mean, you know that and I know that and Voz said it just as well as I just did."

[auntysarah.livejournal.com]

More context--the women (and, conveniently omitted from mention, one man) who, in my journal, were talking about voz using that phrase to illustrate that "suddenly, when it happens to trans men, it's relevant. But I mean, you know that and I know that and Voz said it just as well as I just did."

Frankly, the assertion that the use of transphobic slurs refering to trans women by their (pre-or-non-operative) genitals is not seen as "relevant" by the moderators of transgender is ridiculous, and those making it might want to stay off whatever it is they're smoking.

Also - "a man was on our side, so what we did was OK" - what's this, a new and "witty" form of the "one of my best friends is ..." argument?

[shemale.livejournal.com]

By the way, if the reason you're not posting a link to my journal when you're talking about what's being said there is solely because of TOS reasons by way of not having permission, you now have permission to link to that post.

[auntysarah.livejournal.com]

That's not the reason - I feel I needed to say what I said here, but I'm not going to engage in some sort of long drawn out LJ drama tit-for-tat exchange.

this is real

[gender-euphoric.livejournal.com]

I laughed at "runts with cunts"; I thought it was sort of cute. I'm thinking of using it in my next craigslist ad. Though I am 5'7", so not that much of a runt.

I can definitely commiserate on what a pain in the ass it can be to moderate a large trans discussion group. No one's ever happy. It's thankless, and you're a villain either way.

I honestly think trans men (which of course I am of that number) have had a lot of things too easy for too long, and someone like Julia Serano has been saying uncomfortable, unpopular things that need to be heard for a while now in regards to trans men, our privilege, and how our actions and words can reinforce trans misogyny. I think that post was very valuable in being something big and unavoidable and forcing some trans men who haven't given a single thought to how oppression of trans women collectively is different.

Re: this is real

[auntysarah.livejournal.com]

I think that post was very valuable in being something big and unavoidable and forcing some trans men who haven't given a single thought to how oppression of trans women collectively is different.

And what of those who no-longer feel able to post there, for fear of getting ripped a new one for using the wrong words, or being labelled a "dickless man"? Is that just collateral damage?

[utterlystrange.livejournal.com]

This is a great post, thank you!

[wildeabandon.livejournal.com]

I have a whole load of mixed feelings about this. I mean, sure, voz is abrasive as hell, and people can end up hurt by her behaviour, but I can't help but feeling that there's a point in there somewhere. That the slurs she used, whilst unreasonable and unnecessary, don't have the same weight as ones backed by history and patriarchy. And that doesn't make it okay, but I think it does make it less important.

[snakey.livejournal.com]

Cos society and history totes don't see trans guys as "dickless men". And if a trans man gets, say, fired from his job, or beaten up, or killed, is that "less important" because it's (allegedly) "not backed by history of patriarchy"?

I call bullshit.

[aki-no-kaze.livejournal.com]

after reading this, I'm more then glad I'm a "person non grata" there now, sounds like I've been getting a lot of extra sleep I didn't know I would have otherwise been losing trying to defend people from bullshit like that.


and I so agree with what you say here:

I think one of the biggest objections I had to that thread was the way some of the "tryns wymyn" seem to have equated discussing something controversial within the trans community to their use of outright hateful transphobia against trans men, and deciding the two are equivalent, and therefore the moderators are trans misogynist for picking up the use of actual transphobic hate speech against members of the community while not instantly banning anyone who, you know, dares to take part in the actual discussion on the "wrong" side.

when anything, be it trans stuff, race stuff, sex stuff, whatever changes from "discussing the issue" to "being oppressive" you lose the ability to even address the issue without fear of attack. There needs to be free an open discussion on topics such as those, by both those within and without, in an academic context. There is a huge difference between walking up to some people from a minority group and saying "hay _______, what's up?" and discussing ________ in an academic manner with regards to its impact on society. When people not of group X are barred from even talking about the oppressional forces on group X, they lose allies, support, and political momentum.

I find it interesting that people like those you were referring to in your OP have no trouble stating exactly what is and is not oppressive for their group X (transmen) yet go absolutely apeshit when someone talks about their oppression.

[x-mass.livejournal.com]

if you don't want to unscreen this that's fine, I just wanted to explain why I left and following this post I understand much more why you did what you did as moderator

Sarah I left transgender because you ruled that I was anti-ftm and that I was arguing on a transgender list that it was wrong that "butch women" were becoming f2M and oh I cant be bothered repeating it here.

It was from my point of view, hugely over the top reaction, for what was supposed to be a mild joke, that was taken utterly out of context, when I was actually chatting to the guy about how effective going to the gym had been for a bunch of my f2M friends over the years

I at least now understand why you reacted like you did. If you had just had that sort of a row, everything that raised it head starts to look good for a hammer.

Having said that, If transgender can't be a place where you can discuss ideas and must only accept the party line then it will become just as crap as radfem space. It may be safe for a particular part of the community but it will shrink as radfem space did as it excludes more and more anyone who wont accept "the truth".

Having said all that, posting to transgender takes a lot of tuits for me. Those are tuits I could spend actually doing some useful activism. I think doing actual activism is better - hence my withdrawl.

[nodesignation.livejournal.com]

I appreciated reading this. It always dissapoints me to see "retaliatory" oppression. It's a clear pattern that I see in many different community spaces. I've encoutnered:

a cis woman who thought it was appropriate to hatefully mispronoun a genderqueer person because they had caused an accident that sent her to the hospital.

trans folks who try to explain to HBS people that their genders are just as invalid as any other trans persons, and do so in the "taste of their own medicine" way by repeatedly telling them that their biology and body morphology means that they are "really" their birth assigned gender.

White queers who respond to homophobic men of color by portraying them as violent "ghetto" "thug" and so on.

In all cases, the problem with "retaliatory" oppression is the same problem with all oppressive remarks, they impact more than just the individual(s) you are arguing with. In this case, there were too many inapropriate statements being used by people with more than two perspectives on the issue. As others have pointed out here, one of the consequences is that legitimate conerns get forgotten and left out as people try to figure who did what wrong. And too many people cannot separate out the discussion of which "side's" behavior is wrong from the discussion of which "side's" perspective is right.

[auntysarah.livejournal.com]

In all cases, the problem with "retaliatory" oppression is the same problem with all oppressive remarks, they impact more than just the individual(s) you are arguing with. In this case, there were too many inapropriate statements being used by people with more than two perspectives on the issue. As others have pointed out here, one of the consequences is that legitimate conerns get forgotten and left out as people try to figure who did what wrong. And too many people cannot separate out the discussion of which "side's" behavior is wrong from the discussion of which "side's" perspective is right.

Brilliantly observed, thank you!

[moonspark.livejournal.com]

800 posts? woa.

[fierceawakening.livejournal.com]

Thank you very, very much for this post.

I too have noticed this very weird thing going on where some people are like "well, if I'm calling out transmisogyny it's okay for me to say all sorts of nasty things about trans men and/or FAAB genderqueers" that makes me uncomfortable.

It's hard to say anything, though, because then you get taken to be defending transmisogyny or saying that the whole "transmasculinity chic" is okay. Rather than saying "yeah, that IS bullshit, but you're ALSO overreaching here."

So... thank you. Thank you TONS.

[auntysarah.livejournal.com]

*hug* Thanks - I really appreciate this reply.

[fierceawakening.livejournal.com]

I doubt anyone likes being told "you can't say that" either, especially when they felt they where perfectly fine and right to say it.

Yeah, that. If you'd grown up calling yourself a snerd and calling your friends snerds and having snerd parties, and as far as you knew it was kind of a sarcastic term, but fun, and suddenly someone said "Hey, snerd is a horrible, horrible slur for people like me! Stop it! Stop it!" you just might be baffled, or angry, or annoyed too much to respond rationally.

Especially if people responded to your "hey, but I'm a snerd" with "AHA YOU'RE THE OPPRESSOR!"

I don't think "tranny" is worth people who were "raised" (by which I mean who discovered the trans community and only heard people use it in that positive but sarcastically hip way -- and FWIW, the sarcastically hip people I first discovered who used it for themselves were both trans men and trans women, so I only recently discovered how deeply it bothers so many other trans women) to use it hanging on to it. I think hanging on to it is kind of juvenile, honestly.

But I also think this sound and fury over it's a little odd. I could be speaking purely from privilege here, but the sheer epicness of the drama strikes me as out of proportion to the crime. It reminds me of the times we lash out at those closest to us, because, in a way, it's safe. Often, for many, it's easier to point out the faults of close allies/friends than it is to challenge those who don't have anything in common with us.

[cheshire-bitten.livejournal.com]

masculine-leaning lesbians wanting to demonstrate how subversive and edgy they are by adopting a transgender identity, as if it were a new haircut.

This rubbed me the wrong way, don't go assuming anyone relationship with their bodies, please.

[nixwilliams.livejournal.com]

seconded. in the however many years i've been distantly and closely attached to various trans communities, i've never witnessed this happen. and talking that way about it, even if it did happen, does start to get into "trans enough" territory.

a bit beyond me but thank you

[auslanderin01.livejournal.com]

I still find myself like a bewildered witness to a conversation, my mouth open and my head swinging from left to right as the conversation flies.

I don't understand all the issues (head in the sand for too long) but I felt the hatred and the scorn and heard the sneering, and for a while I thought, "Fuck it, I can't cope with standing alongside this."

And then I thought about the reasoned, tolerant arguments in the middle of that firestorm, and read this (not all of which I understand, for the above reason) and feel happier.

Thank you. And thank you for your two word riposte last night.

[biascut.livejournal.com]

Thank you for this. iphisol is on my friends list so I read the first post and some of the earlier comments, though I hadn't realised how ... very it had got. As someone outside the community, I'm looking for the path through it all that makes the most sense to me, and I am (as ever) so, so impressed by how you write about this, so clear-sighted.