clovehitched ([personal profile] clovehitched) wrote2009-11-05 09:58 am

On Being Ashamed of Feminism and its Hypocrisy

Feeling so very disappointed right now.

Until feminism as a movement stops being mainly an exercise in navel-gazing for middle-class, educated, white cissexual women, until those professing to be feminists stop holding up bigots like Raymond, Greer and Bindel as icons because they're getting damp over some paragraph they once wrote, until the movement at large takes itself seriously enough to apply its supposed principles to cover all women, and all cases where the powerful oppress the powerless, regardless of sex, gender, race, education, class, income, etc., until someone can make a post about trans people having sex on a supposed feminist discussion board without commenters claiming that a trans person (and you know they mean trans woman) having sex without disclosing their medical history is non-consensual sex (i.e. rape) which should be prosecuted, and having half the people in the discussion sharing a similar sentiment...

...until then, I'm going to proclaim loudly and clearly, "I'm not with them."

By the way, did you know that teh tranz is just like an STD? You can probably even catch it from a snog!

(Also, I think that interpreting "the emotional strain caused by the non disclosure is actionable, and so should it be when one hides the fact of them being trans" as "it's OK to kill trans women after fucking them" is probably not that much of a stretch, as you know, that does actually happen quite a lot).

Originally posted at http://auntysarah.dreamwidth.org/214250.html - you can comment here or there.

[identity profile] natalie-456.livejournal.com 2009-11-05 01:30 pm (UTC)(link)
(i'm not going near the link cause I'm already pissed off by Republicans and their tax dollars, but) just, GRR. In an inverted world, does a cis woman have to disclose to the trans person she's about to sleep with "by the way, I've always had a vagina". Does the person who's experimented with their sexuality have to disclose to a partner "by the way, I've slept with someone of a different gender / sex to you".

fail. massive fail. AND TO THINK SO PEOPLE ACTUALLY TALK ABOUT POST-FEMINISM 'oh we've achieved gender equality so its all good now' JUST WTF.

[identity profile] natalie-456.livejournal.com 2009-11-05 01:32 pm (UTC)(link)
(for the record, by "inverted world" : i mean a hypothetical world where the %s of the world's population for cis & trans people are the other way around, with trans vastly outnumbering cis)

[identity profile] rozk.livejournal.com 2009-11-05 01:40 pm (UTC)(link)
I've added a few thoughts to this disturbingly Fail-filled thread.
ext_8007: Drinking tea (Default)

[identity profile] auntysarah.livejournal.com 2009-11-05 01:54 pm (UTC)(link)
I can kind of understand, albeit not especially sympathetically, the "ick, transsexual, does that make me GAY/STRAIGHT" comments because I felt like that...

...when I was sixteen. Then I grew up and dealt with my shit. I wonder how mature, sexually and emotionally some of the commenters there are. Regardless, if they're going to carry on with childish "urgh, girl/boy/trans cooties!" into adulthood, the very least they could do is to keep it to themselves, and realise that the onus for adapting to their unreasonable phobia in a sexual encounter is on them, and them alone.

If anything, if they're that squeamish about their bedroom activities, then they're probably a really crappy lay (being all prissy under the sheets - probably baulk at handcuffs) and disclosing their prejudices to *all* their prospective sexual partners must surely be the decent thing to do. It's only kind.
ext_8007: Drinking tea (Default)

[identity profile] auntysarah.livejournal.com 2009-11-05 01:58 pm (UTC)(link)
Your response is made of distilled awesome!
ext_8007: Drinking tea (Default)

[identity profile] auntysarah.livejournal.com 2009-11-05 02:02 pm (UTC)(link)
Does the person who's experimented with their sexuality have to disclose to a partner "by the way, I've slept with someone of a different gender / sex to you"

Excellent point, and one which [livejournal.com profile] rozk made in her response (worth reading, all the awesome responses from trans people seem to be clustered at the end, so if you scroll down really fast...)
ext_4917: (Default)

[identity profile] hobbitblue.livejournal.com 2009-11-05 02:08 pm (UTC)(link)
I don't understand what they're fretting about, truly. If you've got to know a person enough to have sex with them, presumably you like them and the body you see and the person you're engaging with. Other than forgetting to point out to the prosepective partner that the genitals don't match with the rest (which I rather presume a person *would not* do), I can't see an issue.

[identity profile] jessie-c.livejournal.com 2009-11-05 02:14 pm (UTC)(link)
Feministing is filled with cisprivilege fail.
ext_8007: Drinking tea (Default)

[identity profile] auntysarah.livejournal.com 2009-11-05 02:15 pm (UTC)(link)
But, but, what about ... you know ... the cooties?

(seriously, you're right, but some people seem to have difficulty advancing past the "icky girls/boys!!!" phase)

[identity profile] natalie-456.livejournal.com 2009-11-05 02:18 pm (UTC)(link)
yep, Roz's reply is "distilled awesome" indeed! (as are Lisa & Emily from QT's).

theres really something here that need to be addressed about attitudes and privilege... hopefully it can go somewhere positive and hopefully we won't have to wait for a generation to disappear before it gets anywhere

[identity profile] jessie-c.livejournal.com 2009-11-05 02:19 pm (UTC)(link)
They're talking about post-op stealth transwomen for the most part. It's soooooo traumatic for a second-wave feminist to suddenly find out she's been having sex with a "man". It's almost as bad as when a man finds out he's been having sex with a "man". After all, those mean deceptive transsexuals will fool you every time. You can't trust anyone these days. You can't even let them into womens' space (http://www.straight.com/article-240560/lus-pharmacy-rejects-transgender-customer) for fear of contamination.

/cynical
Ouch, that hurt to write.
ailbhe: (Default)

[personal profile] ailbhe 2009-11-05 02:29 pm (UTC)(link)
I wonder whether it's also (as well as being because some people are shits) related to fertility, and barrenness being cause for divorce, and so on...
ailbhe: (Default)

[personal profile] ailbhe 2009-11-05 02:32 pm (UTC)(link)
Mine even includes men.

[identity profile] phonemonkey.livejournal.com 2009-11-05 02:33 pm (UTC)(link)
Yup.

I blame the kyriarchy.

[identity profile] biascut.livejournal.com 2009-11-05 02:34 pm (UTC)(link)
I like the comment near the bottom which says that cisgendered transphobes should declare that upfront, lest they deceive a trans person into sleeping with them. That was pretty much where my thoughts were going too.

ext_4917: (Default)

[identity profile] hobbitblue.livejournal.com 2009-11-05 02:36 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh, right, forgot about them.

Maybe its easier being bi, I fall for the person and the bits are kind of an afterthought. Then again, as a bi person I'm not seen as valid by some of the LGsupposedlyBdefinitelypushingitonT "community", I'm not sure how Greer and other feminists view such things.
ext_4917: (meepbear)

[identity profile] hobbitblue.livejournal.com 2009-11-05 02:40 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh right. These evil marauding people with nothing better to do than seek out poor unsuspecting males and force themselves on them with no warning!!

Its daft though - a post-op transwoman is a *woman*, that was kind of the point of the whole endeavour. (same for a post-op transman, obviously)

*provides chocolate for the ouchies*

[identity profile] snakey.livejournal.com 2009-11-05 03:02 pm (UTC)(link)
Operative status does not determine your gender. And what are you considering 'post-op' for trans men, anyway? Chest? Hysto? Oopho? Colpectomy? Meta? Phallo? Scrotoplasty? It's not so simple for us...
maellenkleth: (pod-girl)

[personal profile] maellenkleth 2009-11-05 04:24 pm (UTC)(link)
exactly!

so, like, this would make us straight? --- cannot control my giggling at the moment. ta, eh?

[identity profile] jessie-c.livejournal.com 2009-11-05 04:46 pm (UTC)(link)
Second-Wave Lesbian Feminists do not recognise transpeople. We just don't exist for them but especially transmen are seen as deluded butches who are playing the boi role a little too strongly.

Is it possible to feel infuriated at and sorry for people at the very same time?

[identity profile] allieflowlight.livejournal.com 2009-11-05 05:05 pm (UTC)(link)
Here via [livejournal.com profile] aesmael, mainly to say that I like your journal, and I think I will start reading it regularly.

I hear you on the "not with them" thing. It can be tough for me, as well, to identify as a feminist when they seem to care so little about trans folks.

[identity profile] valeriekeefe.livejournal.com 2009-11-05 06:02 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh, I've replied to a cis feminist who thought trans women should be asking cis permission to transition. (Of course, we effectively do in most of the world, but that's beside the point.) There is no end of trans misogyny dressed up as misandry dressed up as gender liberation to be found in feminist circles, even among really awesome trans allies. Had an acquaintance who's really activist tell me that she thought it was worse for trans masculine trans people because they faced male and cis privilege, for almost a second until I gently differed and she realized what had been said and backed away from that rad fem trope in a second.

Sarah, you are not alone in your frustration, and if I have time, I shall wade into this river of feminist fail and do battle. I must. For someone is being wrong on the internet.

[identity profile] aumentou.livejournal.com 2009-11-05 06:08 pm (UTC)(link)
I saw that thing yesterday, and didn't read all the comments because I couldn't reply to them. Then I worked out that LJ doesn't authenticate properly and got an account on it, and went back. Now I'm not very cheerful. I'm sort of tempted to go back and sort the negative comments by the gender of the commentators, because I got the feeling* that it was mostly men saying unpleasant things and I vaguely want to confirm or shred that impression.

*you know, a rough guess, so quite possibly wrong

Either way, these are the liberals? The free-ish-thinkers? The ones who aren't told what to do by booming beardy voices in the sky? And these are the ones who are a very small step from telling us to wear badges identifying us? I think I actually prefer honest bigotry to deluded hypocrites claiming that "not-trans" is a morally acceptable sexual preference and not transphobia with a new paint job.

Apologies for the mini rant.

[identity profile] cericonversion.livejournal.com 2009-11-05 06:25 pm (UTC)(link)
"Is it possible to feel infuriated at and sorry for people at the very same time?" I hope so, as I seem to be spending a lot of time in that combo these days.

[identity profile] purplegril.livejournal.com 2009-11-05 06:26 pm (UTC)(link)
Bah! I've been enjoying the feministing blog (never been on the community bit before) for a few weeks and am so sad to see all those comments on a place I thought was really good. Poop.

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